Random Talk, Interview With Ericb - Pico-View #4
EricB:
EB = EricB
Marina:@MarinaMakes
M = Marina
Their games:
Into Ruins (click link)
Interview:
M: So, @ericb who are you and why are you on Pico-View?
EB: So Hi, I'm Eric Billingsley. I'm an indie developer based in Canada, and I've worked on games like Tunic and Cuphead, and also my own games like Spring Falls. I started playing around with PICO-8 a few months ago and making Into Ruins, a roguelike. Which is mostly what we are going to talk about I think?
M: Wait, really? You worked on Tunic and Cuphead? Like 100% of my research for this was playing into-ruins.
EB: haha yeah! I was lead programmer for the last 2 years before Cuphead came out, and I did level art and some bug fixing & programming for Tunic. After that came out is when I started experimenting with PICO-8 because I had meant to try it out for a while
M: Nice. Like wow. I def didn't just go brag to all of my friends about who I'm talking to.
EB: haha I'm flattered
I started making games as a kid in the 90s with Klik & Play -- that was really cool because you could put things together really quickly without coding, and it also had some tools built in. In some ways PICO-8 has felt like coming back to that sort of rapid development, except more technical which is fun
M: I started with 2010's Klik: Scratch. But anyways, rogue-likes? When'd you discover them?
EB: hmm that's a good question..
I think I got into roguelikes first through rogueLITES? rogue-like-likes? Specifically the original pixel art version of Spelunky
M: My friend @otto_piramuth and I are huge Spelunky Classic fans.
EB: it's so good!
M: IKR!!
EB: from there I got into the traditional roguelike genre and tried out a bunch of them. I think nethack was the first I tried but I bounced off it pretty fast haha. I've played Rogue and DCSS as well but never really stuck with anything until I found Brogue I've played a lot of Brogue
M: I noticed that name in comments a lot. Wanna clue me in as a rogue-like newb?
EB: yeah, so that was the main inspiration for this game
It's closer to the original Rogue than a lot of roguelikes, each dungeon level is just one screen
has a lot of cool level generation with natural caves, and some pretty complex puzzles that unlock treasure rooms.
EB: there's just so many interactions between item, the environment, and the abilities that enemies have that the game feels really dynamic and unpredictable, and the big thing that was unique to Brogue when it came out was the way character progression works.
EB: You start off with just a dagger and leather armor, and then you find stuff as you go and can power them up with Scrolls of Enchantment as you progress, so a lot of these things that I like about the game I tried to incorporate into Into Ruins (eg. Scrolls of Enchantment became Orbs of Power) Some things like the puzzles would have been way too hard to cram into a pico-8 cart though.
M: I'm amazed rn by how much is in the cart.
I really like the hex-grid movement.
Have you ever played "Guncho"?
EB: I played it yeah, it's really good!
M: It has hex-grid movement, and I found it really makes it stand out.
EB: At first I had a different and very confusing way of moving around, and folks in the discord convinced me to change it haha. I really like hexes, I seem to be incapable of making games without hexagons
Brogue had a normal square grid so that's definitely a place where this game is different. But I think hex grids work really well for organic-looking things like caves, and because you don't have diagonals, things like interactions between the characters, fire spreading etc. looks more natural too
fitting square rooms into a hex grid was a bit of a confusing mess but it worked out in the end I think!
M: Here's a gif I took of a level I found looked really natural from the hexes.
EB: yeah I think it works well! If you're curious about how the levels are generated, there's a writeup in the BBS post for the game. I think it would be too complicated to go into detail here
M: I'll link it, and I already read it like twice. Really interesting stuff.
EB: but one thing I didn't talk about is the rendering, which... is really messy. But it's all done with sprites and it does work
M: I never even realized how good the rendering looked until now, and also, how'd you get the idea to swap stairs for the more idea of natural holes in the ground?
EB: I think having that idea for the holes being the way you progress is what first made me excited to work on this So, coming back to Brogue again it also stairs like a normal roguelike. But it also has these big chasms on some levels, as well as pit traps and other things you can fall in which bring you to the level below. In that game you don't normally jump down the holes unless you're desperate, but I thought it would be cool to make that sort of the central mechanic for progressing from level to level.
EB: It opens things up because if there's a hole nearby you can use it to quickly escape enemies, and you sometimes have to weigh whether it's worth it to skip fully exploring a level or just jump down
The way this ties into the Orbs of Gravity is important as well. If you have the Slofall effect from those orbs going, you can jump down safely, otherwise you take damage
(In brogue you would always take fall damage from jumping, which is why it's more of a move of desperation)
I think of the Orbs of Gravity as being a sort of replacement for the food timer a lot of roguelikes have to keep you moving through the game
though I also tried to design the game so waiting around doesn't accomplish anything. So there's no regenerating health, and the staffs can't be recharged by just waiting around either
that's one thing I wasn't as fond of in Brogue, having to weigh whether you have enough food to sit around and wait for your health to regenerate or not
in some ways this makes the game more punishing though. The fall damage you sometimes have to take definitely turns some people off the game
but I think it at least makes it interesting and different
aesthetically, I also like how having these big holes everywhere just makes it feel like the dungeon is old and falling apart.
M: Wow. I should mention as a person who usually doesn't play purist-roguelikes, your's kept me interested for a lot longer than most.
EB: that's nice to hear!
M: I was talking to a friend the other day about roguelikes, and how maximilism loops back into minimalism. How if you can pick up and throw a rock you can pick up and throw a goblin, food, armor. Or anything. So you no longer have to remember what thing does what, but instead you have to think what thing to do what with/to. If that makes sense.
EB: yeah, I was sort of forced by PICO-8 to have a pretty small number of enemies/items in the game compared to most roguelikes. But having the interactions between them is what makes it interesting
M: IKR! The thing I admire is how you made the most out of what little you had.
EB: And I was taking an already pretty modern/minimalist roguelike in Brogue and stripping it down more. So it was a struggle to get enough unique behaviours/abilities/environment interactions in that it can come together and produce that kind of emergent gameplay stuff like the cursed Vampire Cloak... people love and also hate that item.
M: In the end you made a really fun rogue-like, atleast I had a lot of fun playing it.
EB: I'm glad you enjoyed it!
M: And may I ask one final question? A question all game developers must ponder, atleast once, to be among the greats.
EB: shoot!
M: Have you seen the Cuphead cartoon?
EB: haha I watched a couple episodes. It feels very surreal how big the whole franchise has gotten
M: I can't imagine how trippy that is for a game you worked on got a whole tv show.
EB: The animation is really good and cute! Yeah it's super weird haha
M: Wow. It's been an honor talking to you man.
EB: it's been great talking to you too!
M: I'll cya and have a good one.
EB: Byeeeeee
Eric B:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SparseGameDev
Lexaloffle: https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?uid=68442
Itch: https://sparsegamedev.itch.io/
"Into Ruins" Proc-Gen Explained: https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?tid=49928 (scroll down)
Marina:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MarinaMakes
Lexaloffle: https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?uid=70079
Celesmuh (made this articles top-most gif):
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CelesMeh
@2bitchuck https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?tid=50578
Thanks for the support, btw.
Very cool interview and Into Ruins is certainly a stand out from 2022. I'm still playing it and still failing at it, ha!
When games like Into Ruins get released and they're miles ahead of many (a galaxies ahead of my own), it sometimes hits me as a downer simply because I don't feel up to snuff...like what am I missing? But then I see that many of these top-tier releases are from folks that are day-job game devs and I feel much better! LOL It's quite a relief! My jealousy turns to admiration and inspiration.
Thanks Eric for a great PICO8 game that I'm still playing regularly...and thanks for having a hand in Cuphead, one of my all-time favorite games. Also one of the few games my daughter and I have played together and bonded over, so it's a game that goes beyond the screen for me :) Cheers!
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