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dear people,

could you please stop renaming action buttons to your own liking?

I know, pico8's input is a pandora's can of worm.

officially the buttons should be named (O)/(X) (in that order) but:

  • these are fantasy buttons. only (X) has a physical meaning, on your keyboard or your xbox controller (not on your dualshock).
  • you can't expect people at large to know what the button letters/glyphs mean (unless you only use X), especially online (on your itch.io or even right here on the bbs)
  • most of you are playing on your keyboard. I have a xbox controller connected at all time, but the dpad is not supported and the left stick if often a PITA with games developed with arrow keys in mind. so I'm on keyboard too, most of the time. no gamepad online anyway.

that's why many of you are referring to [Z]/[X]. which with all due respect is selfishly short-minded, since z is anywhere else on non-qwerty keyboards. of course the fact that pico8 treats [Z] differently on the web and in standalone doesn't help a bit. may god help you if you're on a dvorak ;)

TL;DR / bottom line:
I would like, if I may, to take you on a strange journey:
how about referring to action buttons as [C]/[V] instead ?

yours sincerely,
<- me

ps: yeah, I know:

edit: I'm going for X/C. it makes sense on any keyboard, html export or exe. plus the keyboard is like a left-handed/mirrored gamepad, so the buttons fall into place.

P#31145 2016-10-18 08:13 ( Edited 2016-10-18 12:13)

I was calling the buttons initially (A) and (B). At one point I remapped them to (D) and (C) keys on the keyboard - which is what I do for all my emulators.

But then I saw programs refer to them time and time again as (Z) and (X) - so now I call them that. These are the default selections that ZEP chose - not us.

If in the game I'm working on now says, "PRESS (O) to continue." How many people do you think will be reaching for the "O" on the keyboard and see that nothing happens ?

In a future program, I refer to them as (1) and (2).

Not everyone has an external joystick.

What's the problem ?

P#31152 2016-10-18 11:09 ( Edited 2016-10-18 15:24)

There's no easy answer here and standardizing something isn't going to help when there are so many devices you can play on.

If you use the O/X icons that P8 provides then you'll have to translate that for the player in your game via instructions. It's not going to be obvious, ever.

I simply try to design my in-game instructions for my intended audience. If that's keyboard people, then I call it out with Z/X. If it's the PocketCHIP, then O/X is probably better.

Since there are so many gamepads with various button arrangements, I don't even bother to target them. I assume if you have a gamepad, you'll either a) figure out by trial-and-error, or b) map it to whatever keys are needed.

But even with all that, I'm never too worried about it. People will learn and they'll learn very quickly. If people have trouble, you'll find out very quickly and can adjust.

Until some options are provided for developers to offer options, this is all you can do. You can't make everyone happy. Someone will always be pissed. Aim for the curve and you'll be fine.

P#31155 2016-10-18 11:32 ( Edited 2016-10-18 15:34)

there's a world beyond your qwerty keyboards.
c/v is self-explanatory and works on qwerty,azerty,qwertz keyboards. no fuss, no muss. just like esdf vs wasd.

imho the defaults are ill-advised and a better option would be to move them from zxcv to xcvb. but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

P#31157 2016-10-18 12:29 ( Edited 2016-10-18 16:48)

I think the clearest thing to standardize on in-game is the glyphs, with the expectation that future versions of the game wrappers will provide better instructions to the player about what physical buttons on the player's device map to the fantasy console's inputs. (Maybe hope, rather than expectation?)

In the meantime, you can provide out-of-game instructions (in the bbs writeup or on your itch.io page). For those instructions, with a single-player game, c/v is a clear winner though.

P#31160 2016-10-18 13:28 ( Edited 2016-10-18 17:28)

Dear PICO-8 Developers,

Please remember that the PICO-8 fantasy console has an actual physical controller which our fantasy customers use on their retail consumer editions of the PICO-8 fantasy console, and that this controller is equipped with an O button and an X button.

Please refrain from using anything but the official O/X glyphs (typed on your licensed devkit editor using shift-O and shift-X). Your cartridge will not pass the stringent official Fantasy Certification process if you use non-standard glyphs or text letters. Furthermore, it would confuse our customers if carts did not use consistent visual indicators for controller buttons.

Here at PICO-8 Fantasy Certification Headquarters, we take customer experience seriously, and at no time do we wish to break the suspension of fantasy for any customer due to lack of standardization.

In the documentation you distribute with your cart (e.g. on the web page below on the BBS) you may indicate which keyboard key(s) map to each physical PICO-8 controller button when using the limited web interface, but please remember that PICO-8's primary fantasy audience will be using the standalone PICO-8 fantasy console (not the web BBS) and an official PICO-8 controller (not a keyboard).

Thank You,

kittenm4ster
PICO-8 Fantasy Certification Compliance Specialist

P.S.
Requiring the use of impossible d-pad inputs (such as pressing left and right at the same time) will also result in a failure status during the Fantasy Certification process.

P#31163 2016-10-18 13:44 ( Edited 2016-10-18 17:44)

Geistvonpa, if PICO ever allows an editor that shows more than just 32-characters across, I would be more than happy to include better comments.

I would also not make such curt If/Then statements that stretch for 5-lines whereas it could all fit neatly in one line.

As it is, I hate to dedicate a whole line just to explain what the line about it does. I'm more familiar with putting a comment at the end of a line to explain just what it does.

And yes, key configuration I believe is a pet peeve.

For all game emulators, I have used the following:

ARROWS (from number keypad)
(1) "D"
(2) "C"
(3) "S"
(4) "X"
(5) "W"
(6) "E"

(Start) Number Keypad "ENTER"
(Select) "Q"

Auto (1) "Z"
Auto (2) "A"
Auto (3) "F"
Auto (4) "V"
Auto (5) "R"
Auto (6) "T"

I'm maintaining "Z" and "X" with PICO because many games say press "Z" or "X" and I don't want to try and remember that is actually "D" or "C" with me.

P#31165 2016-10-18 14:03 ( Edited 2016-10-18 18:03)

I think this one's mostly on Zep. The "fantasy console" image could be a bit stronger to good effect.

Heck, I'd even say it warrants an additional choice built into the pause menu, that displays / lets you configure the controls.

P#31173 2016-10-18 14:54 ( Edited 2016-10-18 18:54)

Tyroney, I think I mentioned that in my first "notes" and "suggestions" posted Online which was largely ignored. :D Ah well, long as it gets done I'm happy.

P#31180 2016-10-18 16:56 ( Edited 2016-10-18 20:56)

@tyroney: you're spot on about pico8' "fantasy console" image. it got a little weak.

think about it: pico8 only needs keyboard input to be a nice "fantasy home computer". everything would fall into place. a home computer, self-contained, with on-board dev tools. plus zep already gave in on mouse support. cartridges were cassettes all along.

now strengthening the console feeling requires strong guidelines, blameless gamepad support, clear input options (proper keyconfig + feedback, maybe on a boot screen?). I'd add, distantiate the devtools from the pico fantasy hardware with a higher resolution, a more readable font... hell, have a crt shader on the console side... :P

I wouldn't fight against the first option. whatever makes most sense.

P#31186 2016-10-18 17:23 ( Edited 2016-10-18 21:28)

x/c, a/b, and x/y may have been the default action buttons before pico-8 was updated

P#32266 2016-11-06 09:08 ( Edited 2016-11-06 14:08)

shift+o and shift+x give the button glyphs, use those... when you use a controler, you're not pushing the Z and X buttons, or the Z and C buttons. Those are usually no where near each other even on controllers that have both.

P#33230 2016-12-09 05:23 ( Edited 2016-12-09 10:23)

Z/X usually refers to older games before we had the standardized O/X "glyphs."

I think somewhere along the lines, "C" was allowed as an "alternative Z" for a couple reasons, one being AZERTY/QWERTZ keyboard support, and another just... and so other people could choose how they preferred their (effectively) button4/5 setup.

O/X came after all of that, in 0.1.8 (IIRC?); as a way of simplifying input.

P#33298 2016-12-10 08:57 ( Edited 2016-12-10 13:57)

sorry, but the whole o/x thing is a sad fantasy.
that could only make sense with a playstation controller, but then the buttons are REVERSED!
on any other controller chances are your buttons are labelled A/B.
anyway 98% of people play on their keyboard. x/c makes sense on every layout.
plus I'd like my games to be played by people who don't know nor care about pico8.

if you really need fantasy labels on the fantasy gamepad of your fantasy console, what's wrong with (x)/(c) ?

P#33302 2016-12-10 12:20 ( Edited 2016-12-10 17:20)

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